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This topic reminds me of the great “secularization” detbae in sociology. Many of the founders of sociology (and psychology too) assumed that religion would just fade away as everyone became more rational and therefore more secular.Along the way to this every greater secularization, much counter information began to be noted, and the detbae began. Part of the detbae was about defining “secularization”, and part of the detbae was about how to measure it. Similarly what is the “Church” that is finished and how do we measure it.Even if one defines the Church as the Papacy or Hierarchy, the answer is not clear. A long list of failures, e.g. divorce legislation, abortion legislation in some areas is offset by a long list of successes in other areas, especially in Third World countries. Comparing the two lists is pretty much apples and oranges. If one defines the Church as Catholics, again the answer is not clear. In the USA, we have a large number of former Catholics, but many Catholic immigrants balance that off. We have declining numbers of priests and religious, but rising numbers of deacons and lay ministers.Catholics are taking over the Supreme Court but the bishops are not. We have a Catholic Vice President and Speaker of the House, but many bishops are not pleased. So depending upon how one defines Church and where and how one measures it, many different answers are possible, just as in the secularization detbae

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